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           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

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       6                       INTERVIEW

       7                           OF

       8                      ALBERT MARINO

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                         sand pit worker for Colonial

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      11                re: Generoso Pope Sr.  1910-50

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           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1              MR. ZULLO:    Would this be a good

       3        time or could I call you later today?

       4              MR. MARINO:  No, it is alright now.

       5              MR. ZULLO:  Your name is Albert Marino?

       6              MR. MARINO:  Right.

       7              MR. ZULLO:  Okay.  When did you work

       8        for Colonial?

       9              MR. MARINO  I started in the sand pits

      10        in 1936.

      11              MR. ZULLO:  1936?

      12              MR. MARINO:  Yeah.

      13              MR. ZULLO:  A long time ago.

      14              MR. MARINO:  You are talking to an old

      15        man.

      16              MR. ZULLO:  Well, you sound terrific.

      17              What was it like back then?

      18              MR. MARINO:  Well, if you know how the

      19        coal mines were, we were just as bad.

      20              MR. ZULLO:  Really?

      21              MR. MARINO:  1936.  We organized in

      22        1938.

      23              MR. ZULLO:  What was it like before you

      24        organized, what was it like?  What were the

      25        conditions?

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           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1              MR. MARINO:  Terrible.

       2              MR. ZULLO:  In what way?

       3              MR. MARINO:  Well, there was no safety.

       4        Nobody, I mean, you got forty-five cents an

       5        hour working and the conditions were very

       6        very bad.

       7              MR. ZULLO:  What did you do there?

       8              MR. MARINO:  I was operating engineer.

       9        I started when I was twenty and I was a

      10        fireman on a derrick for two or three months

      11        and then I run the machine in late 1936.

      12              MR. ZULLO:  What kind of a machine,

      13        what would it do?

      14              MR. MARINO:  A crane.

      15              MR. ZULLO:  I see.

      16              MR. MARINO:  I would run that, well,

      17        later in the years I run the drag line,

      18        shovel, deep shovel.  All those kinds of -

      19        operating engineer, you know, producing sand

      20        and gravel.

      21              MR. ZULLO  How many men would be in a

      22        pit at any one time?

      23              MR. MARINO:  Well, in 1936 there was

      24        about, don't forget now, we had four pits,

      25        there were four different companies and

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           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        altogether we had about seven hundred men

       2        working there.

       3              MR. ZULLO:  Would the men be working

       4        for a specific company?

       5              MR. MARINO:  No, I was working with the

       6        largest one.  There were smaller plants.  Oh,

       7        I don't know, 1936, might have been two or

       8        three hundred working for the company that I

       9        worked for, Colonial.

      10              MR. ZULLO:  You worked for Colonial?

      11              MR. MARINO:  Well, it wasn't Colonial

      12        when I first started, it was Goodwin and

      13        Gallagher.

      14              MR. ZULLO:  Yeah.

      15              MR. MARINO:  And then Colonial came in,

      16        I forgot what year.  I think Colonial came

      17        in, in the late thirties.

      18              MR. ZULLO:  So after you had organized,

      19        the workers had organized and Colonial came in.

      20        Did the conditions improve?

      21              MR. MARINO:  Oh, tremendously.  You

      22        see, Generoso Pope had, he had a trucking

      23        business in New York City and he was already

      24        organized.  I guess his lawyers, he really

      25        organized with the operating engineers and

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           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        they thought highly of him and when we

       2        organized he accepted it.

       3              Actually he told us, he said, “It is

       4        about time you guys organized.”  That is true,

       5        you know, because he was already organized

       6        and he was with the operating engineers and

       7        he probably got a lot of favors too because

       8        he was the one that really started the union.

       9        He was one of the first ones to sign with the

      10        union and once he signed then the other

      11        people, the other contractors just followed

      12        suit, you know.

      13              MR. ZULLO:  Yeah.  Did you ever meet

      14        Generoso?

      15              MR. MARINO:  Generoso, yes.

      16              MR. ZULLO:  You met him?

      17              MR. MARINO:  Yes, I met him in his

      18        office.

      19              MR. ZULLO:  Really, under what

      20        circumstances?

      21              MR. MARINO:  I was an officer of the

      22        union, you know, I was just a conductor, but

      23        I went when we first organized and I met him

      24        in his office and he said, “It is about time

      25        you people got here.”  He was a very nice man.


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           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1              MR. ZULLO:  What was he like?

       2              MR. MARINO:  Well, he come from the

       3        bottom, let's put it that way.  Actually, if

       4        you want to hear a good story, my father

       5        worked in a sand bank and he was running it

       6        and then Generoso Pope was about sixteen

       7        years old he asked for a job and my father

       8        gave him a job and that was a long, long time

       9        ago.

      10              MR. ZULLO:  What did your dad say about

      11        Generoso back in those days?

      12              MR. MARINO:  My father would say, “He

      13        never gave up.”  My father and my uncle was

      14        also in that and he bothered them so much

      15        that they gave him a job.

      16              MR. ZULLO:  You mean, he kept badgering

      17        them for a job?

      18              MR. MARINO:  Yeah, yeah.  Finally he

      19        got in that.  And then actually he went to

      20        school too.  He was quite a fighter.  He had

      21        a job and he went to night school and he got

      22        a little bit of an education and he finally

      23        moved back to New York City and that is when

      24        he got into the contracting business himself.

      25        He started from the bottom and there was no

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           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        silver spoon in his mouth.  He was a man that

       2        had come from Italy, you know, and he worked

       3        himself up to quite a big man.

       4              MR. ZULLO:  Back then when Generoso

       5        first started in the sand pits, what were

       6        conditions like, can you describe --

       7              MR. MARINO:  You mean before?

       8              MR. ZULLO:  Yeah.  I am talking about

       9        way back, you know, we are talking a year --

      10              MR. MARINO:  Actually the company - we

      11        had - they would even get men from the New

      12        York City to come down there and work there

      13        two or three months and fired them and got

      14        new people.  It was a terrible condition.

      15              MR. ZULLO:  What would they be doing?

      16        Would they actually just be shoveling

      17        themselves or --

      18              MR. MARINO:  Well, it is, like I said,

      19        because they had many different

      20        qualifications.  They had many different

      21        kinds, they had laborers and engineers, you

      22        know, all different kinds that worked there.

      23              MR. ZULLO:  Were they mostly Italians;

      24        Italian immigrants?

      25              MR. MARINO:  When I started in 1936 we

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           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        had what you call a league of nations there.

       2        A lot of Germans.  We had a lot of Germans in

       3        the machine shop.  We had Italians doing a

       4        lot of labor work.  It is all according to

       5        what nationality you were.  We had the

       6        shipyard where there were mostly Norwegian or

       7        Swedish people.

       8              MR. ZULLO:  Right.

       9              MR. MARINO:  So everybody had their own

      10        trade.

      11              MR. ZULLO:  Let's go back further than

      12        that.  How did your dad get a

      13        job there, was he an Italian immigrant?

      14              MR. MARINO:  Well, he came here in

      15        1894.

      16              MR. ZULLO:  In 1894, I see.

      17              MR. MARINO:  When he came in, and I

      18        have two brothers and two sisters older than

      19        me and they were all born here and I am the

      20        youngest and I was born in Italy.

      21              MR. ZULLO:  Huh.

      22              MR. MARINO:  They - 1914 they went for

      23        a two year vacation and I was born in 1914,

      24        and then early 1916 they came back.

      25              MR. ZULLO:  And that is when he got a


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           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        job working --

       2              MR. MARINO:  Oh, no, he was working

       3        before that.

       4              MR. ZULLO:  In the sand pits?

       5              MR. MARINO:  In the sand pits.  Then

       6        you say, it is quite a story.  My uncle came

       7        here before my father and he got into the

       8        sand bank business and then when my father

       9        came he eventually got into that business

      10        too.  When my father owned the sand bank for

      11        a while and they had a, like in the old days

      12        they had a grocery store and a bar.

      13              And my uncle had the same thing just a

      14        different sand pit.  If one of those men -

      15        see, my uncle and my father never got a long,

      16        that was the biggest problem.

      17              MR. ZULLO:  Right.

      18              MR. MARINO:  If one of those guys was

      19        seen at the bar he was fired the next day.

      20              MR. ZULLO:  Wow.

      21              MR. MARINO:  Those were the kinds of

      22        conditions that we had.  Like in the old

      23        west.  You know, the old stories of the old

      24        west and how they treated people, well, that

      25        is what it was.


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           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1              MR. ZULLO:  What was your father's

       2        name?

       3              MR. MARINO:  Joseph.

       4              MR. ZULLO:  Joseph Marino.

       5              MR. MARINO:  Yeah.

       6              MR. ZULLO:  So in 1916, what was his

       7        job exactly?

       8              MR. MARINO:  Well --

       9              MR. ZULLO:  I am sorry, let me rephrase

      10        that.  When Generoso Pope came for a job,

      11        asking for a job, what was your dad doing

      12        exactly?

      13              MR. MARINO:  He was the owner of the

      14        plant.  He didn't own the property, but he

      15        was running the whole thing, you know.

      16              MR. ZULLO:  He was like the foreman or

      17        the --

      18              MR. MARINO:  Well, he was a little more

      19        than the foreman.

      20              MR. ZULLO:  Superintendent or the --

      21              MR. MARINO:  Well, he never owned the

      22        property.

      23              MR. ZULLO:  The general manager maybe

      24        or --

      25              MR. MARINO:  Probably in that position.


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           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1              MR. ZULLO:  And what was the name of

       2        the company?  Was it Colonial?

       3              MR. MARINO:  No, I don't know what kind

       4        of names they had.  I have no idea.  I never

       5        thought about what kind of company.

       6              No, Colonial didn't come in until the

       7        '30s running the sand banks.  You see,

       8        Colonial had business in New York.  They were

       9        in a contract and then that is when he - let

      10        me get this straightened out, but Colonial

      11        didn't come in until I think it was 1933 or

      12        1934 or something like that.

      13              MR. ZULLO:  That is when they took over

      14        the sand pit that you were working in?

      15              MR. MARINO  Yes.  That was during the

      16        depression and things were tough.  We were

      17        working like one day a week.  And when

      18        Colonial came in and it really picked up.

      19              MR. ZULLO:  So the sand pits then,

      20        going back to those early days, this would

      21        have been, let's see, Generoso --

      22              MR. MARINO:  Well, he started in the

      23        sand banks as a worker when my father gave

      24        him job.  He was in the --

      25              MR. ZULLO:  This would have been like


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           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        1906?

       2              MR. MARINO:  1906, no, no, no, wait a

       3        minute.

       4              MR. ZULLO:  You see, Generoso came over

       5        in 1906 at the age of 15.

       6              MR. MARINO:  You probably have better

       7        information than I have.

       8              MR. ZULLO:  So if your dad gave him a

       9        job at the age of 16, that would have been

      10        like in 1907?

      11              MR. MARINO:  Yeah, that is possible,

      12        now you are, yeah.  You see, my father took

      13        the vacation in 1913 and that was already all

      14        done, you are right.

      15              MR. ZULLO:  Okay.  So in 1907 your dad

      16        was a general manager of a, you are calling

      17        it a sand bank?

      18              MR. MARINO:  Sand bank, yeah.  Sand

      19        pit, yeah, but we called them sand banks.

      20              MR. ZULLO:  Any idea how big the sand

      21        pit was?

      22              MR. MARINO:  You see, there was three

      23        or four different sand pits.

      24              MR. ZULLO:  These were all near Port

      25        Washington?


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           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1              MR. MARINO:  That was, my father and my

       2        uncle had, they were - what name they went

       3        under, I don't know.

       4              MR. ZULLO:  Okay.  Can you tell me

       5        anything else that your dad said about

       6        Generoso when he first came and asked for a

       7        job, your dad turned him down, is that it?

       8              MR. MARINO:  My father, yeah, didn't

       9        give him the job, right away, but Pope kept

      10        insisting on a job, you know, kept bothering

      11        him, so my father gave him a job.  I don't

      12        know how long he worked there, but then when

      13        he went to school and I guess he knew what it

      14        was all about, he went to, back in New York

      15        City and that is when he really started his

      16        contract work.

      17              MR. ZULLO:  Right.

      18              MR. MARINO:  In other words he would, I

      19        don't know how he started or anything, but I

      20        know that he did good work there, he had a

      21        lot of men working, a lot of trucks.

      22              MR. ZULLO:  Right.  But when Generoso

      23        first started there, did your dad tell you

      24        anything about what kind of a job he gave

      25        him, was he just --

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           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1              MR. MARINO:  Yes, at that time when

       2        they loaded barges, they loaded with horse

       3        and wagon.

       4              MR. ZULLO:  Right.

       5              MR. MARINO:  They would go on a dock

       6        and get the sand on the barges and then they

       7        were towed to New York City.  That is the

       8        kind of work he had.  I think that he was

       9        running the horse and cart.

      10              MR. ZULLO:  I see.  Now did they have

      11        housing for the workers there?

      12              MR. MARINO:  Yes.

      13              MR. ZULLO:  What was that like?

      14              MR. MARINO:  They always had workers,

      15        they had a camp like.

      16              MR. ZULLO:  A camp?

      17              MR. MARINO:  Yeah.

      18              MR. ZULLO:  Can you describe the

      19        buildings or what they slept in or where they

      20        slept?

      21              MR. MARINO:  Well, what I know now, you

      22        see, I have to go back around the early 1920s

      23        that I remember, you know.  My father had a

      24        quite a few men living there and they would

      25        pay him like two dollars a month rent and


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           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        they had carts that they would - you know,

       2        they had to go to work at like six in the

       3        morning.  It isn't like today, they had to

       4        work eleven, twelve hours a day.  It was

       5        convenient for them to sleep right there and

       6        go to work early and come back and my father

       7        had a grocery store and he had a bar, so the

       8        conveniences were there.

       9              MR. ZULLO:  I see, so these were like

      10        company stores and company --

      11              MR. MARINO:  Absolutely, yeah.

      12              MR. ZULLO:  Bar and all that.

      13              MR. MARINO:   - coal mines, you know,

      14        what is that Tennessee songs --

      15              MR. ZULLO:  Sixteen tons and what do

      16        you get, another day older and deeper in

      17        debt.

      18              MR. MARINO:  That is right.  And there

      19        was an awful lot of them that saved money and

      20        they eventually brought their family here,

      21        especially the Italians, you know.  They

      22        would save a few dollars and then get their

      23        family over here.

      24              MR. ZULLO:  So back in 1906 and 1907,

      25        around then, how much money do you think that


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           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        the workers were getting?

       2              MR. MARINO:  I know that they were

       3        getting, I know that my father's wages were

       4        when he first started in the sand bank, it

       5        was a little over ten cents an hour.

       6              MR. ZULLO:  Amazing.

       7              MR. MARINO:  The big pay was a dollar

       8        and ten cents a day.

       9              MR. ZULLO:  Geez.

      10              MR. MARINO:  It doesn't sound possible

      11        but that is what it is.  I know the wages

      12        around that time there was around ten, eleven

      13        cents an hour.  I know that my father worked,

      14        he says, he got a dollar ten cents a day.

      15              MR. ZULLO:  Wow.

      16              MR. MARINO:  I am confused between hour

      17        and day, because when I say a dollar ten

      18        cents a day, that is terrible.

      19              MR. ZULLO:  Would they work in the

      20        summer and the winter?

      21              MR. MARINO:  Well, it was all according

      22        to the weather, the winters, you know, in

      23        those days the winters were so bad --

      24              MR. ZULLO:  Yeah.

      25              MR. MARINO:  Even when I worked there,

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           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        the zero, you know meant nothing.  But a lot

       2        of times they would have to close down, the

       3        harbor would freeze and it was all according

       4        to the weather, you know.

       5              MR. ZULLO:  So what would the workers

       6        do in the wintertime?

       7              MR. MARINO:  They would do nothing,

       8        there was nothing, that is why you had the

       9        company store.  They would get themselves in

      10        debt, but it worked out, it was terrible

      11        conditions.  There was hardly ever work in

      12        the wintertime, because, you see nowadays

      13        when I was there, we worked in the wintertime

      14        because it never got that cold like it did in

      15        the teens and the twenties and the thirties.

      16        The thirties were terrible cold.

      17              MR. ZULLO:  I see.  In the summertime,

      18        how hot would it get in the pits?

      19              MR. MARINO:  Oh, we had days that we

      20        had men pass out.  I had men pass out in

      21        front of me that, it would just go ninety,

      22        ninety five degrees and you know, when you

      23        work in the sand pits, the sand gets hot

      24        itself.

      25              MR. ZULLO:  Yeah.


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           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1              MR. MARINO:  So you fool around with

       2        hundred and ten degrees and a lot of fellows

       3        would pass out.  The next day they were

       4        alright again, I don't know.  It was a tough,

       5        you see, you have to go a little bit before

       6        my time too and I started in 1936 and it was

       7        rough then.

       8              MR. ZULLO:  Yeah.

       9              MR. MARINO:  I used to hear stories,

      10        and you know, stories of how many people got

      11        hurt and you see, I lived right next to the

      12        sand pits.

      13              MR. ZULLO:  Right.

      14              MR. MARINO:  When we heard the whistle

      15        blow, we knew somebody got killed or got

      16        hurt.  Every time, so often we used to hear

      17        the whistle.  You see, everything was steamed

      18        then, you know, steamed locomotives, steam

      19        shovels, and then when somebody got hurt they

      20        would blow the whistle.

      21              MR. ZULLO:  Why would they do that?

      22              MR. MARINO:  Well, to get help, you

      23        know, that somebody got hurt.

      24              MR. ZULLO:  I see.

      25              MR. MARINO:  I used to hear that and I

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           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        used to run up there to see what is happened,

       2        and you will see a guy whose leg was cut off

       3        or his arm was off or something, terrible

       4        conditions.

       5              MR. ZULLO:  Would people get buried?

       6              MR. MARINO:  Oh, yeah.  I have a

       7        brother-in-law, uncle, cousin, all got killed

       8        in the sand bank, and most of them got buried

       9        in the sand pits, they were what you called

      10        cavers.  The bank was so high that they had

      11        to have men up there to try to get the bank

      12        to cave down to get the shovel to pick it up.

      13              MR. ZULLO:  Yeah.

      14              MR. MARINO:  Well, sometimes it would

      15        get fooled because sometimes it would come

      16        down larger than they expected and they would

      17        get buried and they would get killed right

      18        there.

      19              MR. ZULLO:  You mean, they would be on

      20        the top of the --

      21              MR. MARINO:  No, in the middle of the

      22        bank.

      23              MR. ZULLO:  In the middle of the bank

      24        and they are trying to knock it down --

      25              MR. MARINO:  Right, that is it.  An in


                                                                20

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        other words, if the thing didn't cave, they

       2        would undermine it so it would cave.

       3              MR. ZULLO:  Right.

       4              MR. MARINO:  But sometimes the cave was

       5        more than they expected and the guys can't

       6        get out of the way and they get buried.

       7              MR. ZULLO  Did you ever see or were

       8        you a part of any rescue of digging down and

       9        pulling people out?

      10              MR. MARINO:  No, actually, this mostly

      11        happened before my time.  In 1936 they had

      12        other things to get the bank down.

      13              MR. ZULLO:  The whistle would blow

      14        often?

      15              MR. MARINO:  Terrible.  There wasn't a

      16        week that went by that we didn't hear a

      17        whistle.  A lot of people got hurt in the

      18        sand pits.  Like I was telling you, I had a

      19        brother-in-law that got buried there.  I have

      20        an uncle and, you know, a cousin and there

      21        was an awful lot of people, and you see, the

      22        conditions were so terrible until finally the

      23        state come in there and straighten a lot of

      24        things out when the union got in we got a lot

      25        of safety, there was a lot of precautions,


                                                                21

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        there was, getting hurt was a lot less.

       2              You see, when I left the conditions

       3        were pretty good compared to when I first

       4        started.

       5              MR. ZULLO:  Well, if your dad gave

       6        Generoso his first job there, what kind of a

       7        job - you said that he working with a horse?

       8              MR. MARINO:  Well, the way that I

       9        understand it, he was driving the horse and

      10        cart, they have what you call a side dump,

      11        you fill that up with sand and then when they

      12        go on the dock they would tip it over and the

      13        sand would fall on the barges, that was the

      14        job that he had.

      15              MR. ZULLO:  I see.

      16              MR. MARINO:  Now how long, I don't

      17        quite know how long he worked there.  But I

      18        know that he went to night school to better

      19        himself, you know.  I guess he figured, this

      20        is not for me, you know, I better do

      21        something.  I know he went to school.

      22              MR. ZULLO:  Did your dad say what it

      23        was about Generoso that made your dad finally

      24        relent and give him a job?

      25              MR. MARINO:  He wouldn't give up.  You

                                                                22

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        know what I mean, if you want to get

       2        something done, you have to keep bothering

       3        the guy, I guess, and say, well, I might as

       4        well give him a job or else he'll be

       5        bothering me.

       6              In other words, he was insistent that

       7        he had to have that job and so my father

       8        finally gave him the job.  He was never sorry

       9        for it because he was a good worker.

      10              MR. ZULLO:  Was there a reason why your

      11        dad didn't want to give him the job in the

      12        first place?

      13              MR. MARINO:  Well, you don't need

      14        anybody, you could have a hundred men or you

      15        could have two hundred men, I don't know.

      16        Maybe my father didn't need anybody at that

      17        time.  Maybe a little later on a couple of

      18        weeks later maybe he needed him or something,

      19        I don't know.

      20              MR. ZULLO:  How young could workers be?

      21              MR. MARINO:  There was no, there was no

      22        law then how long or how old you got to be.

      23        I know that he was around sixteen.

      24              MR. ZULLO:  Right.

      25              MR. MARINO:  I don't know.


                                                                23

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1              MR. ZULLO:  There could have been

       2        people, could your dad not want him because

       3        he was too young or sixteen was considered,

       4        that is fine?

       5              MR. MARINO:  No, he never mentioned

       6        that he was too young or not.  I never knew

       7        of anybody younger than that working in the

       8        sand pits because it was a tough job, there

       9        was nothing easy in the sand pit.

      10              MR. ZULLO:  Yeah.

      11              MR. MARINO:  A kid could never do it.

      12              MR. ZULLO:  Was there, were there a lot

      13        of fights or anything among the workers?

      14              MR. MARINO  Well, there was a lot of,

      15        you know, between the Polish and the Italians

      16        and the Germans and Swedish, I guess there

      17        was a little friction there.  But I know when

      18        I started there, it was, after we got the

      19        union everything was that we worked together

      20        sort of.

      21              MR. ZULLO:  Now, you call them the sand

      22        pits, what exactly are we talking about?

      23        What kind of material?  Is it just typical

      24        sand or is it --

      25              MR. MARINO:  No, you see, the sand, we

                                                                24

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        delivered the sand to New York City or even

       2        to Connecticut and Jersey; and the sand has to

       3        be processed and has to be washed.

       4              You see, where the sand pits are, you

       5        can't have sand pits like say in Florida,

       6        there is no such thing.  But over there the

       7        sand had to be washed, they had to take the

       8        clay, had to take the roots out and then they

       9        would have gravel, it was three-quarter inch

      10        stone, or quarter inch stone, but you know,

      11        that would be all mixed in for cement, you

      12        see, everything went to New York City.

      13              MR. ZULLO:  What was the actual

      14        material that you were digging?

      15              MR. MARINO:  Whatever was in the bank

      16        there, that was all sand a gravel, that is

      17        why they call it a sand and gravel pit.  The

      18        bank is consisting of sand and gravel.

      19              MR. ZULLO:  Right.

      20              MR. MARINO:  Stones and rocks or

      21        whatever.  And then they had crushers, in

      22        other words, if the stone is too big the

      23        crusher used to crush it down to three

      24        quarter size so that the contractors can use

      25        it, you see, a lot of cement has got stone in


                                                                25

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        it.

       2              MR. ZULLO:  I see.

       3              MR. MARINO:  That is why they call it a

       4        sand and gravel pit, that is what it is,

       5        sand.  It has to be special sand.  You know,

       6        you like go on the beach and you see a lot of

       7        sand --

       8              MR. ZULLO:  Yeah.

       9              MR. MARINO:  You can't use that because

      10        that is what we called dead sand, it had no

      11        life in it.  And the concrete, if you mix

      12        that with cement, it would just completely

      13        fall apart.

      14              MR. ZULLO:  I see.

      15              MR. MARINO:  So you have to have sand

      16        that, I always called it, you see, on the

      17        beach we always called it dead sand.  And the

      18        sand that you get in the pit that is a

      19        different kind of sand altogether.  That is

      20        the kind of cement that holds with the cement

      21        and hardens.  Better the sand the better the

      22        concrete.

      23              MR. ZULLO:  So in the summertime when

      24        people would be working in the pits, did they

      25        wear anything around their heads or --


                                                                26

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1              MR. MARINO:  Well, there was no laws

       2        then, later on in years they had to wear a

       3        hard hat, but nobody pushed it.

       4              MR. ZULLO:  So everybody stripped down

       5        to the waist?

       6              MR. MARINO:  Well, if it was too hot

       7        here.  In those days we had everything with

       8        steam and not only was it the hot weather but

       9        it was the steam and people couldn't take

      10        their shirts off, it was too hot.  They would

      11        wear overalls and a big hat from the sun, but

      12        they had no, what you call a safety hat or

      13        anything like that.

      14              MR. ZULLO:  What kind of hats did they

      15        wear?

      16              MR. MARINO:  Like the regular, try to

      17        keep the sun out of their face, I guess.

      18              MR. ZULLO:  But would they be wearing

      19        more like baseball cap type hats or a straw

      20        hat or --

      21              MR. MARINO:  There was a mixture.  They

      22        wouldn't wear a straw hat because it wasn't a

      23        desert, but they wore mostly, I don't know if

      24        you have seen the train engineer, it is

      25        like a cap, you know, what did you just say?


                                                                27

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1              MR. ZULLO:  Like a baseball cap?

       2              MR. MARINO:  Baseball cap, something

       3        like that.

       4              MR. ZULLO:  Was it blinding, when that

       5        sun would beat down, was it hard to see in

       6        the pits?

       7              MR. MARINO:  No, I don't think that we

       8        had any problem.

       9              MR. ZULLO:  The sun didn't bounce off

      10        or reflect off the sand?

      11              MR. MARINO:  Well, no because, I don't

      12        believe that - I know that in the pit it was

      13        a lot hotter than when we were on the water,

      14        you see, I was on the water a lot and the

      15        pits were a lot hotter than the water.  I

      16        guess it must be from the sand.

      17              MR. ZULLO:  Right.

      18              MR. MARINO:  It had to have gotten

      19        awful hot.

      20              MR. ZULLO:  Sure.  What about on windy

      21        days, did that sand whip around?

      22              MR. MARINO:  Oh, yeah.  Well, it is not

      23        as bad a desert, but when you had sand hit

      24        your face it would sting you boy, that would

      25        hurt.


                                                                28

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1              MR. ZULLO  Would the workers wear

       2        bandanas around their face or handkerchiefs?

       3              MR. MARINO:  I have seen with some, the

       4        red handkerchief that they would put around

       5        their face, you know.  Some would do it, some

       6        not.  When it got too bad, I guess they

       7        couldn't do much in the sand pit, but I don't

       8        remember anybody stopped working on account

       9        of a sandblast or anything.

      10              MR. ZULLO:  I imagine that really did a

      11        number on their skin?

      12              MR. MARINO:  Oh, yeah.

      13              MR. ZULLO:  I suppose that you could

      14        tell somebody who worked in the sand pits

      15        just by the way they --

      16              MR. MARINO:  Well, the skin got a

      17        little tough, you know.  You could take the

      18        weather, when we had zero weather that we

      19        thought nothing of it.  We got so used to

      20        that cold weather, you know.

      21              MR. ZULLO:  Yeah.

      22              MR. MARINO:  Now down there they don't

      23        have the cold weather like we used to have

      24        years ago, I remember.

      25              MR. ZULLO:  Were there any Italian


                                                                29

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        expressions or anything that the workers used

       2        or said concerning work?

       3              MR. MARINO:  I don't know, I can't

       4        think of any.

       5              MR. ZULLO:  Okay.  So now, the other

       6        thing, with the houses, the housing that they

       7        had, how many workers would live in one of

       8        these?  Were these like shacks?

       9              MR. MARINO:  Well, some of them were

      10        shacks.  And then eventually they built some

      11        little homes for families.  You see, these

      12        shacks were just men only.

      13              MR. ZULLO:  Right.

      14              MR. MARINO:  And then the company, in

      15        fact, the company even had a school there.  I

      16        went to that company's school.  It went as

      17        far as the third grade.  They had the school

      18        there for many many years.  Even my older

      19        sister went to that school.

      20              You see, the company tried to be on the

      21        good side of the town, I guess.  They built a

      22        school for the - you know, we had a lot of

      23        children in there around the sand pits.  When

      24        they built a home there were a lot of

      25        children so the company built a school for


                                                                30

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        them.

       2              MR. ZULLO  These homes were real small

       3        homes?

       4              MR. MARINO:  Yeah, a single family

       5        home.  No apartments or anything like that.

       6        But the shacks were maybe long shacks, maybe

       7        thirty, forty men living in there.

       8              MR. ZULLO:  What were the bathroom

       9        facilities like?

      10              MR. MARINO:  I don't get you.

      11              MR. ZULLO:  Restrooms, did they have -

      12        what did the workers do, did they --

      13              MR. MARINO:  Outhouses.

      14              MR. ZULLO:  They had outhouses

      15        scattered throughout the sand pits?

      16              MR. MARINO:  No, no, nothing in the

      17        sand pits.  Sand pits, you just pull your

      18        pants down, that is it.

      19              MR. ZULLO:  Oh, really.

      20              MR. MARINO:  But the shacks, they all

      21        had outhouses and you could go outside.

      22              MR. ZULLO:  And these were made of

      23        wood?

      24              MR. MARINO:  Yeah.

      25              MR. ZULLO:  Shingled roofs or tin roofs


                                                                31

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        or --

       2              MR. MARINO:  Oh, gosh, I don't know

       3        that.

       4              MR. ZULLO:  So these would be the same

       5        kinds of things that you would see on a ranch

       6        kind of like for the farm hands?

       7              MR. MARINO:  Yeah, yeah, but I think

       8        that this was worse.

       9              MR. ZULLO:  A lot worse, I see.  For

      10        light, what did they have, lanterns?

      11              MR. MARINO:  No, as far as I remember,

      12        we all had electricity.  But if you go back

      13        to 1906 or 1910, I don't know.  I was born in

      14        1914 so I remember things in the early

      15        twenties and we had lights then.  They all

      16        had electricity.

      17              MR. ZULLO:  It’s hard to believe you were born in 1914.

      18              MR. MARINO:  Yeah.

      19              MR. ZULLO:  Man, you sound so much

      20        younger.

      21              MR. MARINO:  That is working in the

      22        sand pits.  Had forty-three years.  I retired

      23        in 1979 and I started in '36.

      24              MR. ZULLO:  That is incredible.

      25              So you were telling me that when you


                                                                32

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        joined you thought, you said you started in

       2        1936?

       3              MR. MARINO:  1936 and we organized in

       4        1938.

       5              MR. ZULLO  In '38, so how did

       6        conditions improve when you --

       7              MR. MARINO:  Improved 100 percent.

       8              MR. ZULLO:  In what way?

       9              MR. MARINO:  Better wages.

      10              MR. ZULLO:  What were the wages, what

      11        did they go from --

      12              MR. MARINO:  Take for instance myself

      13        as an operating engineer, I was working for

      14        forty-five cents an hour, not even that, it

      15        was forty-four and nine tenths.  You got four

      16        dollars for ten hours work, nine hours work.

      17              So the, when we organized we went from

      18        forty-five cents to a dollar ten an hour.

      19              MR. ZULLO:  Holy smokes.

      20              MR. MARINO:  That is how bad,

      21        forty-five cents, my god, it was terrible.

      22        And, but there wasn't much competition, all

      23        the sand pits were all about the same.  You

      24        would think that another sand pit would give

      25        you fifty cents an hour and everybody would

                                                                33

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        go there, but there were so many men around,

       2        that if they were short a man they would go

       3        to New York City and pick up a bunch of men,

       4        you know.

       5              MR. ZULLO:  I see.

       6              MR. MARINO:  In the beginning we had a

       7        low class of people and then after --

       8              (Thereupon, Side A ended and Side B

       9        began.)

      10              MR. MARINO:   -- they all had to have a

      11        trade.

      12              MR. ZULLO:  Right.  So now, so in 1938

      13        you and a bunch of other workers went in to

      14        see Generoso Senior?

      15              MR. MARINO:  Yeah, that was in 1938.

      16              MR. ZULLO:  Where was the office, where

      17        did you go?

      18              MR. MARINO:  I don't remember, in fact,

      19        I just followed the delegate around, he was

      20        an older man, he knew just where - I didn't

      21        realize where we were and I know we were in

      22        his office.

      23              MR. ZULLO:  You were or were not?

      24              MR. MARINO:  What?

      25              MR. ZULLO:  You were in his office?


                                                                34

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1              MR. MARINO:  Yeah.

       2              MR. ZULLO:  Was this in the City or --

       3              MR. MARINO:  In the City, yeah.  But I

       4        know he was in the City, the only thing that

       5        I remember him saying is that it is about

       6        time you people got here.

       7              He says to us, “I come to this country

       8        broke, and if I have to, I will go back

       9        broke, but I have to treat the men right.”

      10        that is what he told us.

      11              So he was kind of glad that we

      12        organized.  In other words, if a company is

      13        paying forty-five cents an hour and he, they

      14        come in and he brings it up to a dollar an

      15        hour, he probably from the contract, he would

      16        be condemned.

      17              MR. ZULLO:  Yeah.

      18              MR. MARINO:  It was all done through

      19        the union, you see.  Him and the union got

      20        along real good.  He was the first one to

      21        sign with the operating engineers.  And from

      22        then on it was easy for the union to organize

      23        different people but you had to have a

      24        beginning.

      25              MR. ZULLO:  Right.


                                                                35

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1              MR. MARINO:  And he was the beginning.

       2              MR. ZULLO:  Was there much

       3        negotiations?

       4              MR. MARINO:  No, no.  But we signed for

       5        one year and then, you know, we would sign

       6        for three years.  We only had that one

       7        strike, we had one strike in the sand pits,

       8        it wasn't the company's strike, it was more

       9        of a union strike.

      10              MR. ZULLO:  When was that?

      11              MR. MARINO:  Let's see.  Well, after

      12        the first year, it must be in 1939 then.

      13        Somewhere around that.

      14              MR. ZULLO:  Why would the union strike

      15        when G --

      16              MR. MARINO:  We got, we were

      17        independent, let's put it that way.  Let me

      18        see how I can explain that.  We were supposed

      19        to be the lowest people on the earth working

      20        in the sand pit.  We didn't have no brains,

      21        you know, that is what the people would say.

      22              MR. ZULLO:  Yeah.

      23              MR. MARINO:  No unions would even come

      24        down and organize us.

      25              MR. ZULLO:  Yeah.


                                                                36

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1              MR. MARINO  So when I got in at 1936,

       2        we talked around it and finally we decided to

       3        organize, but we couldn't get no union to

       4        come in, so we got, we were independent.  We

       5        got the steam electrical mechanical engineers

       6        from Yonkers, New York, they had a charter,

       7        you see.

       8              MR. ZULLO:  Okay.

       9              MR. MARINO:  So we signed up with them,

      10        see.  And we signed up for one year.  After

      11        the year was up and the other companies, the

      12        big companies operating engineers and all

      13        them, they figured that if we went on strike,

      14        we could almost control New York City, if we

      15        didn't get the sand a gravel, New York City

      16        couldn't work.

      17              MR. ZULLO:  Right.

      18              MR. MARINO:  So they didn't want a

      19        little independent company to turn around and

      20        have control over them, so they tried to

      21        organize us, see.  That is when we had the

      22        big strike because they were powerful and we

      23        were trying to hold them off and we held them

      24        off for about nine weeks but then it got too

      25        bad so we had to join them.


                                                                37

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1              So we joined the operating engineers

       2        which was a good thing, in other words, we

       3        were stubborn, everybody was stubborn and we

       4        figured, well, they didn't organize us then,

       5        why should they organize us now.  But they

       6        realized that if they didn't grab ahold of

       7        us, we would be too powerful, we could

       8        paralyze the whole New York City.  That is

       9        why they wanted it.  That is how they got us

      10        and that was the best move we made, see.

      11              MR. ZULLO:  So in 1939 there was a

      12        strike.  How long did the strike last?

      13              MR. MARINO:  Nine weeks.

      14              MR. ZULLO:  Nine weeks?

      15              MR. MARINO:  Yeah.  Hold on a second.

      16              MR. ZULLO:  Okay.  So there was this

      17        nine week strike in 1939.  What did Generoso

      18        have to say about all this?

      19              MR. MARINO:  Well, see, he had to,

      20        well, now let me get it straight here now.

      21        See Generoso come in there in 1933 and they

      22        had a five year contract and so I think that

      23        he was out.  I think he was out at that

      24        particular time.  You see, they took over the

      25        sand pits for five years and they built it


                                                                38

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        up, you know.

       2              MR. ZULLO:  Who is they, who took it

       3        over?

       4              MR. MARINO:  Colonial.

       5              MR. ZULLO:  But he owned Colonial?

       6              MR. MARINO:  Yeah, but you see, wait a

       7        minute now, let me get it straight.  They

       8        came in 1930 - this was during the depression

       9        things were so bad, the company couldn't keep

      10        up and so Colonial come in.

      11              MR. ZULLO:  Right.

      12              MR. MARINO:  So they took a five year

      13        contract from 1933 to 1938.

      14              MR. ZULLO:  Okay.

      15              MR. MARINO:  That is when we organized

      16        in '38 with Colonial, but then Colonial had

      17        to go out because the five years was up.

      18              MR. ZULLO:  So Colonial --

      19              MR. MARINO  That is when Metropolitan

      20        Sand and Gravel came in.

      21              MR. ZULLO:  Who did?

      22              MR. MARINO:  Metropolitan Sand and

      23        Gravel.

      24              MR. ZULLO:  So they owned the pit.  In

      25        other words, Colonial did not own the pit --


                                                                39

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1              MR. MARINO:  No, no, they were running

       2        it.

       3              MR. ZULLO:  They were just running it.

       4        I see.

       5              MR. MARINO:  You see, there were no

       6        sand pits - no company owned any of the sand

       7        pits.  That property belonged to private

       8        people, you see.  Say for instance, they pay

       9        maybe ten to fifty cents a yard, every yard

      10        they dig up, the owners would get that money.

      11              You see, they never owned it.  They

      12        never owned the property.

      13              MR. ZULLO:  They just got the rights to

      14        mine the property?

      15              MR. MARINO:  That is it.  You got the

      16        rights, you never owned the property.

      17              MR. ZULLO:  I see.  So when the strike

      18        hit, Colonial was not a part of that --

      19              MR. MARINO:  No.  The strike was more

      20        of a union strike.

      21              MR. ZULLO:  Right.

      22              MR. MARINO:  The operating engineers

      23        wanted us and we didn't want them because we

      24        thought that they were unfair.  But after

      25        nine weeks they won out.


                                                                40

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1              MR. ZULLO:  Right.

       2              MR. MARINO:  Now I don't know just

       3        exactly when, but years later Colonial come

       4        back in again.  You see, in other words,

       5        Colonial ran the place.  Now I can't think of

       6        what year that was.  This was later on.  I

       7        don't know what year, but they came in and

       8        they run the place, they took over in other

       9        words.

      10              MR. ZULLO:  Right.

      11              MR. MARINO:  I don't know.  I have to

      12        try and remember now.  We were on the, we

      13        were not under Colonial when we -- When we

      14        organized we were under Colonial, but

      15        Colonial had to get out in late 1938.

      16              MR. ZULLO:  Okay.

      17              MR. MARINO:  See, then our contract was

      18        finished so the union decided that they

      19        wanted the sand pits, they wanted to organize

      20        us.

      21              MR. ZULLO:  Gotcha.

      22              MR. MARINO:  You see, we already were

      23        organized, but they were too powerful.  I

      24        mean, it was to our advantage to join them,

      25        you know, as far as pensions and stuff like


                                                                41

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        that, it was the best thing that we ever did.

       2              MR. ZULLO:  Now did you ever meet

       3        Generoso again other than that time when you

       4        organized?

       5              MR. MARINO:  Now I had dealings with

       6        his son, because he died, you know.  I forgot

       7        what year he died.  He was only fifty eight

       8        years old.

       9              MR. ZULLO:  But you had dealings with

      10        Gene Pope or did you have dealings with

      11        Fortune or --

      12              MR. MARINO:  With Fortune and Anthony.

      13              MR. ZULLO:  And with Anthony.

      14              MR. MARINO:  Now Gene was the youngest

      15        guy.

      16              MR. ZULLO:  Right.  He is the one who

      17        ended up founding the National Enquirer.

      18              MR. MARINO:  Well, he don't own that

      19        now I don't think.

      20              MR. ZULLO:  Well, he died in 1988.

      21              MR. MARINO:  He did?

      22              MR. ZULLO:  Yeah.

      23              MR. MARINO:  I didn't even know that.

      24              MR. ZULLO:  Yeah, he died at the --

      25              MR. MARINO:  I know that he was running


                                                                42

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        the Enquirer but we had, Anthony was the main

       2        guy, you see, in other words, Anthony was the

       3        brains behind the whole thing after his

       4        father died, you know.

       5              MR. ZULLO:  Yeah.

       6              MR. MARINO:  And Fortune was - I guess

       7        he had a different other department, I don't

       8        know how they worked it.  But I know that I

       9        talked many a times with Anthony.

      10              MR. ZULLO:  Did Generoso come out and

      11        visit the pits at all?

      12              MR. MARINO:  Oh, yes.  Yes.

      13              MR. ZULLO:  He would?

      14              MR. MARINO:  Oh, a lot of times.  And

      15        we had a steam train with a special car and

      16        he would be with his party and they would

      17        ride around the whole pit, you know, we had a

      18        big pit, there was a lot of territory and he

      19        would ride around, you know, and that is the

      20        time that he was running the Progresso.

      21              MR. ZULLO:  Yeah, Il Progresso, uh-huh.

      22              MR. MARINO:  And we had one Italian

      23        fellow, he was running the train, but he

      24        couldn't read or write, but he would buy the

      25        Progresso and he would put it in his pocket

                                                                43

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        so that Generoso Pope could see it.  We

       2        always laughed about that.

       3              MR. ZULLO:  What was the special car,

       4        what did it look like?

       5              MR. MARINO:  It was a flat car with

       6        seats on it, you know.  And instead of

       7        walking around the pit they would go on the

       8        tracks, you know --

       9              MR. ZULLO:  It was open air?

      10              MR. MARINO:  Yeah.

      11              MR. ZULLO:  How would Generoso be

      12        dressed?

      13              MR. MARINO:  Oh, he had the regular

      14        suit on, the regular business suit.

      15              MR. ZULLO:  Was he always dressed up?

      16              MR. MARINO:  Yeah.

      17              MR. ZULLO:  Would he wave to the

      18        workers or --

      19              MR. MARINO:  Yeah, yeah, the workers

      20        liked him.

      21              MR. ZULLO:  Uh-huh.

      22              MR. MARINO:  They knew that the bread

      23        and butter was buttered as long as we -

      24        because we knew that he was on the other side

      25        of the contracts when he could use the sand

                                                                44

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        and he would get our sand and so we were a

       2        little busy when Pope come in.

       3              MR. ZULLO:  Would he be wearing a hat

       4        or anything?  Did he wear --

       5              MR. MARINO:  I don't --

       6              MR. ZULLO:  You wouldn't know.  Would

       7        he, how would people recognize him?  I mean,

       8        the sand pits are so big, they knew that it

       9        was him?

      10              MR. MARINO:  Well, we knew a couple of

      11        days ahead of time.  Everything would be

      12        cleaned up and prepared for him, you know.

      13        It was not like he was coming over there to

      14        spy on anybody, we all knew that he was

      15        coming.

      16              MR. ZULLO:  I see.  When you were

      17        negotiating or when you were in the office

      18        with Generoso, when he spoke, did he have an

      19        accent?

      20              MR. MARINO:  Very, very very little, it

      21        was hard to tell.  He was pretty well

      22        educated.  Actually I didn't notice any of

      23        the accent.

      24              MR. ZULLO:  Was he soft spoken, was he

      25        gruff or was he loud?

                                                                45

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1              MR. MARINO:  No, just normal.  Normal

       2        guy.

       3              MR. ZULLO:  Did he smoke a cigar or

       4        cigarette or anything?

       5              MR. MARINO:  I didn't see him do that,

       6        no.

       7              MR. ZULLO:  Okay.  What was the office

       8        like?  Was it very well appointed?  Was it

       9        basic?  Was it --

      10              MR. MARINO  It was a nice office.  He

      11        had pictures there and different things.  I

      12        don't remember too much about --

      13              MR. ZULLO:  I understand and you have

      14        done a terrific job so far.  I am really

      15        impressed with what you have been able to

      16        remember.

      17              Do you remember ever seeing Gene come

      18        out to the pits at all?

      19              MR. MARINO:  Actually I don't believe

      20        that I have ever seen Gene.  He was the

      21        youngest and I don't know if, I don't

      22        remember ever seeing him.  The only ones that

      23        I had seen was Anthony and Fortune and then

      24        Anthony's son used to come around later in

      25        the years.


                                                                46

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1              MR. ZULLO:  What was his son's name; do

       2        you remember?  Was it Anthony Junior?

       3              MR. MARINO:  I think that it was, I am

       4        not sure now.  I think that it was Anthony

       5        Junior.  Yeah, it was because we had a little

       6        tugboat named after him and the tugboat was

       7        Anthony Junior.

       8              MR. ZULLO:  What other things do you

       9        recall about Generoso Senior?

      10              MR. MARINO:  Well, the only thing that

      11        I could say was that I never had too much

      12        dealings with him, but it was always good

      13        words, good things were said about him.  The

      14        point was that we knew that we worked with

      15        Colonial and we knew that what he had in his

      16        mind that he should treat the men right and I

      17        think that he did.

      18              MR. ZULLO:  Right.

      19              MR. MARINO:  And as far as we are

      20        concerned he was a good man.  You know, a

      21        good boss and like he said, he meant it, I

      22        believe when he said that I come to this

      23        country broke and if I have to I will go back

      24        broke.  He was a good man.  There was no

      25        question about that.  And I liked his sons


                                                                47

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        too, they were good.  And they wouldn't be

       2        hiding.  If they see ya, he had a big hello

       3        for you, Anthony did.  Anthony did more than

       4        Fortune.

       5              MR. ZULLO:  Uh-huh.

       6              MR. MARINO:  We knew Anthony better

       7        than Fortune.

       8              MR. ZULLO:  I see.  Did you follow

       9        Generoso's career in terms of his work with,

      10        you know, in politics and the fact that he

      11        was the advisor to the Presidents, FDR and to

      12        Truman?

      13              MR. MARINO:  Yeah.

      14              MR. ZULLO:  Were you aware of that?

      15              MR. MARINO:  Well, I know that he was

      16        quite - I knew that as far as the unions were

      17        concerned they thought a lot of him.  Now as

      18        far as him with politics, I know that he was

      19        into everything, he was, to me what I admired

      20        about him was that he was not a big educated

      21        man and that he came from the bottom and he

      22        got up there and like you say, he advised a

      23        lot of the people.

      24              MR. ZULLO:  Right.

      25              MR. MARINO:  A lot of times I know that

                                                                48

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        he went against his own lawyer.  You know,

       2        the lawyer would say, no, you are not

       3        supposed to - do not get mixed up with the

       4        operating engineers, you know.  But Gene for

       5        some reason, Generoso went against their

       6        lawyers and he joined up with the operating

       7        engineers and that was the best thing that he

       8        ever did.  They got a lot of respect for him

       9        and he got to be quite powerful in New York

      10        City and he got to be quite a big man.  He

      11        owned a lot of trucks.  I think that at one

      12        time he had nine hundred trucks running

      13        around.

MR. ZULLO:  Were the workers, organized

      17        representation, just the --

      18              MR. MARINO:  Oh, no.  We had our own

      19        delegate.  We had our own officers.

      20              MR. ZULLO:  And you represented all the

      21        workers in the sand pit or just --

      22              MR. MARINO:  No, all the workers.

      23              MR. ZULLO:  All the workers?

      24              MR. MARINO:  Yeah.  And they say, when

      25        we joined the operating engineers they had to

                                                                49

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        get a special charter for us because we had

       2        so many different workers.

       3              We had shipyard workers, mechanics,

       4        operators, you know, instead of having

       5        sixteen different unions in there, we had

       6        one.

       7              MR. ZULLO:  Right.

       8              MR. MARINO:  And I was one of the

       9        officers.

      10              MR. ZULLO:  Gotcha.

      11              MR. MARINO:  And we ran our own

      12        business.  In other words, nobody dictated to

      13        us.  As long as we were doing the right

      14        thing, you know.  So we had no problem and

      15        after that we never had another strike from

      16        1939 until I retired there in 1979, we never

      17        had another strike.  It worked out for the

      18        good and then, you know, we made a good

      19        living in the sand pits.

      20              MR. ZULLO:  Did Generoso have to deal

      21        with organized crime figures who might

      22        have --

      23              MR. MARINO:  That I have no idea.

      24              MR. ZULLO:  To pressure the unions?

      25              MR. MARINO:  I have no idea.  That was


                                                                50

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        way above us.

       2              MR. ZULLO:  Did the unions have to pay

       3        protection money and things?

       4              MR. MARINO:  No, no, we had nothing.

       5        There was none of that going on.  No, we had

       6        our own delegate and we had our own executive

       7        board, we had local autonomy and that, in

       8        other words, nobody dictated to us and we

       9        never even reported to them.  As long as we

      10        were doing all right and they were doing all

      11        right, they just left us alone.

      12              Until, what happened was that the sand

      13        pits started to peter out, you know, you can

      14        only dig so many sand in so many years and

      15        that was there for over a hundred years and

      16        it finally petered out and we had pension, so

      17        instead of having five or six hundred men, we

      18        were down to ninety men working and the

      19        pension was going down.

      20              So we joined the operating engineers on

      21        the pension which was the greatest thing in

      22        the world, although we had a million dollars

      23        in our pension, well, that wouldn't last

      24        long.  So we joined with the operating

      25        engineers.  Like I am getting a pension now


                                                                51

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        from Washington from the operating engineers,

       2        see.

       3              MR. ZULLO:  Great.

       4              MR. MARINO:  That was a great thing and

       5        you see, we couldn't keep our head above

       6        water because without the operating engineers

       7        we would flop.  We wouldn't have no more

       8        pension and no more welfare, no more nothing.

       9              So they took us in and we had a million

      10        dollars and we gave it to them, which a

      11        million dollars on a pension don't mean

      12        nothing, you know, but it worked out alright.

      13              MR. ZULLO:  Can you give me an idea how

      14        big a sand pit, a typical sand pit would get?

      15              MR. MARINO:  What do you mean by big?

      16              MR. ZULLO:  Are we talking, you know, a

      17        mile wide or five hundred yards?

      18              MR. MARINO:  Well, the sand pit that I

      19        worked in had two hundred and thirty some odd

      20        acres.  Somewhere around that.

      21              MR. ZULLO:  And how deep would it be?

      22              MR. MARINO:  Some places were a hundred

      23        and fifty feet high; that is why we had

      24        people get killed, you see.

      25              MR. ZULLO:  Yeah.


                                                                52

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1              MR. MARINO  A little higher too in

       2        some places.  Until later on in years,

       3        instead of steam shovels we got draglines so

       4        nobody got hurt after that.  You know,

       5        everything improves as the years go by.  That

       6        was normal.  We got a set of steam shovels

       7        and we got draglines, electric draglines, you

       8        know, and if the bank came down it didn't

       9        mean nothing, there was nobody there to get

      10        hurt.

      11              MR. ZULLO:  Did the workers say or do

      12        anything when they found out that Generoso

      13        had died in 1950?

      14              MR. MARINO:  We had, there were many,

      15        many people that went over to the funeral

      16        parlor.

      17              MR. ZULLO:  Really?

      18              MR. MARINO:  Yeah, there were so many

      19        people that I remember even Mrs. Pope, I met

      20        her, and she says, you know, the sons wanted

      21        her to go home and rest.  And she turned

      22        around and told it, I was right there, she

      23        said, Look, all the big shots come over to

      24        see him.  Now I am going to wait for the

      25        workers and I want to meet them too.


                                                                53

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1              So you can see it was the wife also

       2        that had feelings for the workers.  She would

       3        stay there until the funeral parlor closed

       4        because a lot of workers went at nighttime,

       5        you know, and she was there day and night.

       6        She met an awful lot of men that went to the

       7        funeral parlor, it was great.

       8              MR. ZULLO:  Did the workers do

       9        anything; write a letter, a joint letter or

      10        anything?

      11              MR. MARINO:  Not that I know of.

      12              MR. ZULLO:  How did you find out about

      13        his death?

      14              MR. MARINO:  I have no idea how I found

      15        out, I don't remember.

      16              MR. ZULLO:  Do you know of any other

      17        sand pit workers who are still alive from

      18        back in that era?

      19              MR. MARINO:  Oh, gosh, no.  You see, I

      20        have been down here in Florida for ten years.

      21        I don't even know, if any of those people are

      22        alive or dead now.  When I went in the sand

      23        bank I was one of the youngest.  When I left

      24        I was one of the oldest.

      25              There was an awful lot of people that


                                                                54

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        died.  All of the people that I knew, most of

       2        them, they are all dead now.

       3              MR. ZULLO:  Do you have any photos or

       4        anything from that time involving the sand

       5        pits?

       6              MR. MARINO:  I think that the library

       7        has a -- I gave a lot of the library in Port

       8        Washington.  They have all the information.

       9        I gave them a lot of letters, I even gave

      10        them my mother's picture.  I have some

      11        somewheres, I don't know.  I know that they

      12        put out a magazine of all about the sand

      13        pits.

      14              How did you get my name?

      15              MR. ZULLO:  I got it through the Port

      16        Washington Library.

      17              MR. MARINO:  Shodell (phonetic).

      18              MR. ZULLO:  Elly Shodell.

      19              MR. MARINO:  We got along pretty good.

      20              MR. ZULLO:  She said that you were

      21        really nice and very cooperative and she was

      22        right.

      23              MR. MARINO:  Yeah.

      24              The only thing that we didn't have was

      25        the Chinese, we didn't have no Chinese.  We

                                                                55

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        had to Jewish people.  Of course, they were

       2        all Italians, Polish, Yugoslavians.  I mean,

       3        the Czechs and Swedish, but we had like a

       4        league of nations, we all got along.

       5              MR. ZULLO:  How did you overcome the

       6        language barrier?

       7              MR. MARINO:  That was, you would be

       8        surprised how some of them learned English

       9        right away.  You could tell that, you know,

      10        it was pretty hard but we understood each

      11        other.

      12              MR. ZULLO:  Did some of the veteran

      13        workers ever pull jokes on the newcomers?

      14              MR. MARINO:  Oh, yeah.  We always, that

      15        is a normal thing.

      16              MR. ZULLO:  What would you do?

      17              MR. MARINO:  Well, I don't know.  You

      18        would make fun of them for a while and then,

      19        they all got, they all seemed to understand

      20        what was going on.  It wasn't that there was

      21        fights or anything like that.  We got along

      22        good.

      23              MR. ZULLO:  Alright.  Thank you again,

      24        Mr. Marino, I appreciate it so much.

      25              MR. MARINO:  Well, if you want more


                                                                56

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1        information you can call me up.

       2              MR. ZULLO:  I appreciate that, sir.

       3              MR. MARINO:  Okay.

       4              MR. ZULLO:  Thank you.

       5              MR. MARINO:  Bye.

       6              MR. ZULLO:  Bye.

       7              (Thereupon, the interview ended.)

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                                                                57

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1                  CERTIFICATE OF OATH

       2

           STATE OF FLORIDA  )

       3                     )  SS.

           COUNTY OF BROWARD )

       4

       5

       6              I, the undersigned authority, certify

       7        that ALBERT MARINO'S interview was personally

       8        transcribed by me.

       9

      10

      11

      12              WITNESS my hand and official seal this

      13        16TH day of APRIL, 2001.

      14

      15

      16             __________________________

                      Marni Chris Tice.

      17              Notary Public.

                      State of Florida at Large.

      18

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                                                                58

           REPORTER:  ZULLO      INTVEE: MARINO

       1                      CERTIFICATE

       2   STATE OF FLORIDA  )

                             )  SS.

       3   COUNTY OF BROWARD )

       4

                      I, MARNI CHRIS TICE, A COURT REPORTER,

       5        DO HEREBY CERTIFY THAT PURSUANT TO NOTICE OF

                TRANSCRIBING THE AUDIO-TAPED INTERVIEW, THAT

       6        I WAS AUTHORIZED TO AND DID STENOGRAPHICALLY

                REPORT THE FOREGOING INTERVIEW AS HEREINABOVE

       7        SHOWN, AND THE TESTIMONY OF SAID WITNESS WAS

                REDUCED TO COMPUTER TRANSCRIPTION UNDER MY

       8        PERSONAL SUPERVISION.

       9

                      I FURTHER CERTIFY THAT THE SAID

      10        INTERVIEW WAS TAKEN AT THE TIME AND PLACE

                SPECIFIED HEREINABOVE, AND THAT I AM NEITHER

      11        COUNSEL NOT SOLICITOR TO EITHER OF THE

                PARTIES IN SAID SUIT NOR INTERESTED IN THE

      12        EVENT OF THE CAUSE.

      13

                      I FURTHER CERTIFY THAT I HAVE DELIVERED

      14        THE ORIGINAL COPY OF SAID INTERVIEW TO POPE

                ENTERTAINMENT GROUP, TO BE RETAINED BY THEM

      15        PENDING FURTHER ORDER OF THE COURT.

      16

                      WITNESS MY HAND AND OFFICIAL SEAL IN

      17        THE CITY OF FORT LAUDERDALE, COUNTY OF

                BROWARD, STATE OF FLORIDA, THIS 16TH, DAY OF

      18        APRIL, 2001.

      19

      20

      21   _______________________

           MARNI CHRIS TICE

      22   COURT REPORTER

           CN: CC677414

      23   EXP: 09-03-01

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